I think we've reached the point at which everyone's had their say on the merger in the previous post. I also don't think it's particularly polite to keep TWE waiting whilst we slowly debate this back & forth, so I'm moving this along into the counter-proposal stage.
I'll post what I think our counter-proposal should be in the comments down below; keep in mind that it's my view, not SALT's. How we vote is something that also needs to be settled: a vote counter on the blog's sides could be arranged; whether or not we use ECHO for it's also something that should be decided. I'll leave that up to whatever proposal I see getting repeated the most.
One final thing: In the previous thread, it seems like there's a large amount of confusion over what SALT does and what, exactly, editing is. I am going to state this as clearly as I can, so I can only apologise if this causes more debates/confusion.
SALT does not edit; SAlT has never edited. /fic/ does not edit. TWE do not edit (individual members occasionally do; the group's aims are not, however, angled towards it). There is, as of this date, no major* editing site within the fandom. The second proposal is, essentially, a proposal to create the first.
What /fic/, SALT and TWE do is a mixture of author-centric reviews and proof reading. An author-centric review points out flaws with the story, either grammatical or to do with the story itself. It suggest improvements for the story or areas which could be tightened. And that is it: the reviewer has no commitment to a follow-up review or to even clarify what they mean to the author. Most do, because people who are reviewing for free are generally nice like that. But -- just as there are reviewees who never respond -- there are reviewers who never respond. Editing is an entirely different beast.
Editing involves near constant interaction with the author. It is, in essence, one step down from being the author themselves: you are involved in every aspect of the story other than actually writing it. It is not -- and I stress this with a meta repetition -- not something to be taken on lightly.
And that's that. Oh, and in the interest of not being swayed by my opinion (I am just that charismatic, you see) please write out your proposal before reading the comments section.
*Our fandom being what it is, there are, of course, some. Here is one of them. It seems dead to me, though YMMV.
My proposal is this:
ReplyDelete1) SALT and TWE do not undergo a full merge; both groups remain as separate entities performing their individual tasks.
2) A joint venture between SALT and TWE is created, namely fulfilling the second proposal. Some more back and forth between the two groups would be required in order to iron out the nuances of what is going to happen.
And, because this is diplomacy and I get to carry on being an inconsistent reviewer, I will join in with this venture. Again, I mention this because my involvement is clearly what TWE have been after all along, no?
I could so play Trixie.
3) Feelers are extended towards /fic/ and some of the other reviewing groups; we try and extend this beyond just SALT and TWE. I doubt much of /fic/ would be interested, but the gesture should probably be made all the same.
And now for the other, SALT-centric bit:
1) We clarify exactly what it is SALT does, here and now. It's been left inside a sort of murky anarchy for far too long -- we should make sure that there's no confusion within our ranks so that there's no confusion without.
2) To aid with making sure that all submissions get something, I'm going to establish a semi-prereading system, run by me. I will give even less detail than the Prereaders themselves. The format'd go something like this:
Will this get onto EQD? :: No
Grammar score :: 3
Story score :: 1
Click here to find out what these scores mean.
The grammar score would start off at five and then get marked down for each mechanical error the story contains; the story score would also start at five and then get marked down each time I wanted to click away. (I will stop reading if either hits zero). I generally pre-read every story that gets sent in anyway, so this won't be that hard to implement.
I stress that this would not be the review: it would simply be put in place to provide a simulation of the pre-reader response. Again, I could be Trixie.
3) A page is set up listing stories which have yet to get reviews: all stories are posted on there (not retroactively: I don't have the energy/time to do that) and then removed when a reviewer comments on the main page. That this needs to be done would either be included on the post itself or on a 'how to review for SALT' page.
4) SALT sets up a page filled with links to certain aspects of writing. One section for grammar, and another section for story making (how to characterise and the like). We would not need to write these -- I've already got a collection of links which I use when reviewing for /fic/ based on the ones I read when rising from a runt who'd never heard of dashes to the god-like, reviewer-of-death I am today.
Trixie Tricks a Trick.
I agree with most of this logic. Most of my argument will be somewhat in the spirit of "why not both?" and "to preserve some independence, we will..."
DeleteIn other words, I'll respond to this comment, as the points are laid out nice and tidy. Like I've seen a number of others say, I too support a partial merger. SALT will remain intact. This goes with the "what is SALT/what do we do?", as with this proposition, we will better define ourselves, and the murky state of anarchy will be lifted, giving us a system of organization all our own.
But wait, how then are we going to merge? I'm against a full-on merge, as that is little more than submission in my eyes. I suggest a merge more along the lines of a partnership between two individual groups.
Now to respond to the individual, SALT-centric points, as they are almost exactly parallel to those of my own:
1) WE NEED DEFINITION. That's really all.
2) I'm not one much for final recaps/overall reviews, so I'll leave it at that.
4) That was one of the original propositions, and I agree in part with it. The only thing that I do not like about the proposition was the part about us being converted from a review site to just a roadside signpost with a guide on it on the vast roads of the internet. I would like to continue with SALT as it was and is, but still be open to new additions. In other words, I'm not too keen on subtraction.
Also, the "click here" in the post reads as normal text for me. Are you sure that you put a hyperlink in there?
In response to 2)
DeleteI'd be running it, and the main purpose behind it is making sure that all submissions get some basic level of feedback, as well as fulfilling SALT's primary role as a buffer to EQD. Reviews would carry on being inconsistent.
And no, there was no hyperlink in there. It was just a 'this is what it could look like'.
It feels really weird offering opinions on both sides of the fence like this, mainly because I keep getting confused on who "us" is supposed to mean. :3
ReplyDeleteFWIW, I'm leaning towards not doing a full merger, if only because there seems to be little enthusiasm coming from the SALT end. You're very right, however, that there NEEDS to be a larger, more professional editing system set up, and TWE has the resources and manpower to get that up and running fast. My preference is that TWE forms their group and offers a chance at membership to anyone out there who wants a shot at it.
Yeah, the editing thing should be clarified. I agree with the partial merger.
ReplyDeleteWhatever your ideas are, I implore the lot of you to get yourselves on Skype. All of us are on it, with an Admin/Founder-only chat. Once there, we can iron out all the details and work through the ideas point by point. That way questions can be asked and answered much faster.
ReplyDeleteBetween this thread and the last, there are far too many questions for me to be able to answer them all effectively or efficiently. Answering them point by point in real time would be much more effective at this point.
My Skype is csquared2012.
Thank you,
Csquared08
Pfft, Skype. You'll be expecting us to enter the twentieth century next.
DeleteI, for one, am perfectly happy with my difference engine, thank you very much. I've heard too many bad things about these so called "vacuum tubes" to be able to trust them.
Anyway, being serious, you shouldn't need to feel the urge to address any of the concerns brought up here, C^2oh8. These debates/discussions are more about SALT talking to SALT and getting a general idea over what we think. Once that's in place/I've got some vague idea about it, I'd be more than happy to move the discussion over to Skype.
It would make your decision a lot... more informed? if we were all on the same page. That's all I want. I'd prefer to make sure you guys to be on the same page as us before you decide on what you do.
DeleteMiscommunication, even potential miscommunication, is one of those things I can't stand :/
Taking Aquillo's advice, I've not looked at the counter-proposals yet... I feel like I have very little to say without a jumping-off point.
ReplyDeleteMy proposal is this:
1. SALT members who want to join TWE can go ahead and do so. Not like they couldn't go for it already, though, so no real change there.
2. That proposed group with a more SALT-like style that would have ties to TWE should happen, with all of the details to be decided by people who are on board with it.
...That's about it, as far as my concrete thoughts go. If folks from here want to be a part of that group, too, okay, cool. Nothing should really happen to SALT, though, as far as I'm concerned. As long as Aquillo's still fine with running it, I'm still fine with popping in and doing the odd proofreading now and again.
Hell, if that new group's admins are cool with it, maybe a link to SALT could be on its page. Being linked to TWE, that might get us some more people interested in being members here and trying out our way of doing things. Hell, maybe experience here could be one avenue of vetting for potential members of that group.
I've been up for a good twenty one hours. Take everything I've said with a grain of salt (Dohohoho).
Yes, I'd like a partial merger. That's the first thing we should do. The rest can wait.
ReplyDeletePeople keep on mentioning this "Partial merger" as if it's something that's already been established/defined. Could someone please tell me what they think it is? I'm getting all confuzzled here.
ReplyDeleteAs to this last point, it would be germane to ask if anyone from SALT would be interested in taking up an admin position with the new group, especially over the choosing and approving of editors and fics? If not, then there really needs to be no official overlap.
Delete...Did you mean to respond to my post, here?
DeleteI thought a partial merger was us moving into a section of the TWE that's been set aside, and then we run that bit the way we want it, and people from TWE are free to join if they want.
DeleteThis thread seems to have stalled a bit, so I'll say this: I think we should iron out the details of how we do this as we go. SALT and TWE can stay separate just fine, and SALT-centric things can be decided whenever. For the right here and now, though, let's just try and get this other group off the ground, why not?
ReplyDeleteStarting at the start, does anyone have any suggestions for a name? Should we start a poll? I'm actually pretty partial to C^2's (I think it was his, anyway) suggestion of "Engineers". So, something using that could be nice.
I can see it now: fanart with the tf2 engineer with a wrench/pen, only instead of "erectin", he's "editin", and it could be a picture with him fixing words on paper, or whathaveyou.
DeleteAs for ironing out the details, I probably wouldn't be of much help, sorry.
>thread has stalled
DeleteYeah, soz. I got distracted by /fic/ having its own merging crisis.
As for the other group, I think that's the part where we move over to skype discussions. Collectively, we've reached the place where our response is "Full-merger, no thank you; starting up the group, ok". There's nothing more that we can do by ourselves at this point.
inb4 C^2oh8's "FINALLY!" :P
Agreed. samuel.cook.93 here.
DeleteI can't remember what they came up with the TWE chat, but it had Engineers in it, and the acronym was TWEET, which I thought was pretty cute. :D
DeleteSo, granted no merging, I guess the only other thing he'll want to know is who might feel like joining? Whoever does will probably be part of the formation process, so they'll have some responsibilities. Fun ones, but still responsibilities.
Probably all of us here would be joining.
Delete/fic is having a merger? I've got to check that out.
@B_P
DeleteWe posting Skype names? aquill0 should get you through to me.
I'm not on it that much, though. I should really try changing that some time. Switching to 'online' for the period of this weekend.
Be warned, though. I'm a Brit and will be sleeping whilst you guys are up and having fun.
@OtterMatt
I'd prefer not to be part of the group if push comes to shove, partially because I'm struggling enough with juggling studies, RL hobbies and fanfiction writing as is.
Man, I miss the days when being involved in fanfiction meant writing it. I might not have been able to write for toffee, but damn did it take up less time.
@Cheezesauce
DeleteNot a merging crisis; that was a bit of a... wrong way to put it. They're more just thinking of shuffling away like a hermit crab.
I'm amused by the irony of it happening now, although they have been on about this for some time. Guess they got tired of Waiting for Gummii...
Hey so um... what's the progress on this?
ReplyDeleteDon't know.
DeleteSALT haz progress?
Delete